AMANDA KERSEY: Welcome to HBR On Management, case research and conversations with the world’s high enterprise and administration specialists—hand-selected that can assist you unlock the perfect in these round you.
I’m HBR senior editor and producer Amanda Kersey.
Should you’re a mid-level supervisor aiming for senior management, this 2024 episode from Ladies at Work provides firsthand perception from executives who’ve made that very transfer.
Right here’s host Amy Bernstein.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Irrespective of how bold and proficient you’re, rising up and out of mid-level administration will be sluggish going for causes past your management, like when the one that’s within the higher-level place you need has been there perpetually and would possibly keep there perpetually, or when the corporate doesn’t have a enterprise want or the price range to improve your job title and wage from senior to govt.
While you’re able to tackle extra, and particularly whenever you’ve been ready and making an attempt for what looks like a really very long time, the prospect of remaining caught within the center indefinitely is suffocating. My three visitors have been there. They’ve gotten themselves out of there, and now they’re right here to direct, encourage, and reassure you. Two of them are COOs: Megan Bock and Lauren Reyes. Megan rose up by means of the insurance coverage business and switched to tech a number of years in the past.
MEGAN BOCK: I feel in early days, I maybe wasn’t as efficient at articulating that I needed to do extra. As extra time handed, I acquired extra express.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Lauren rose up the ranks on the YMCA.
LAUREN REYES: I joke with my mother on a regular basis that I really feel like I’ve been not certified for each job that I’ve utilized for and gotten. And in fact, I used to be certified. I had what it took, however there’s at all times that self-doubt.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Earlier than turning into executives, their careers had stalled, however they managed to seek out methods to speed up them once more.
LAUREN REYES: I had no thought previous to strolling into that assembly that I used to be going to say these issues.
MEGAN BOCK: While you apply to a different group, they see you for who you’re immediately, and the potential of what you’re keen to join and do.
AMY BERNSTEIN: They’ll recount the conversations, choices, and networking that jump-started their development. Earlier than we hear their tales and recommendation, let’s begin with Cynthia Pong. She was a public defender earlier than turning into a coach, and now she advises girls of shade who want to transfer into positions of senior management. Cynthia, let’s begin with kind of the fundamental stuff.
CYNTHIA PONG: Positive.
AMY BERNSTEIN: How frequent is this sense of being caught in your profession?
CYNTHIA PONG: Oh, it’s extraordinarily frequent. I really feel like I encounter it in any respect ranges, though I’ll say that there’s a explicit set of emotions, I feel, that include of us who’re in the course of their profession. So that they’re mid-career, they’re in center administration, or they’re form of at a director degree, and there’s this sense of each stuckness and likewise barely a little bit of being misplaced, not realizing the place to go subsequent, not realizing what to do subsequent, that form of factor.
AMY BERNSTEIN: What’s it about that kind of midsection of the profession that makes it treacherous?
CYNTHIA PONG: Oh, nice phrase for that, as a result of I do assume there are plenty of potential traps that we have now to look out for, particularly as girls. So, to start with, being a center supervisor, being in a center place is hard at baseline. You’re usually caught within the center between higher administration and what they need, and your direct experiences who want to you for sure issues and have most likely quite a lot of expectations as properly.
So, you each have to steer them and it’s important to handle up. And oftentimes, on either side, individuals need various things, and so they additionally will not be clear about what they need both. So, there’s plenty of miscommunication that may occur. And admittedly, usually it’s a thankless job, Amy, since you face that ongoing background dissatisfaction from either side, and that’s very irritating for lots of ladies, I discover, as a result of there’s nuances when it comes to gender there.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what are these nuances precisely?
CYNTHIA PONG: Proper. So, one of many stereotype biases in opposition to us as girls is that we’re communal, or we’re anticipated to be communal, and to look out for the collective, and to place the group, the mission, the corporate at all times forward of ourselves, and mix that with the truth that there’s usually deep conditioning that we’ve been subjected to over our lifetimes to hunt or wish to promote concord. So, people-pleasing, if you’ll. Think about how irritating that’s, and also you’re ready the place inherently, intrinsically, there are going to be individuals upset at you from either side, regularly.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper. It’s simply very laborious to make the twain meet, your bosses and your direct experiences, or the groups that you simply handle. Let’s speak about shifting from the huge mid-management degree into senior administration. What makes that so significantly difficult, particularly for ladies?
CYNTHIA PONG: Proper. I’d say it comes down to a few issues. One, the perform of it being a numbers recreation. What I’ve observed at sure firms, Amy, the place they’ve, for no matter cause, created plenty of center administration roles. So, there’s virtually a bloat at that degree. So, that’s why you’re feeling it so particularly on the mid-level, as a result of it seems like much less of a leap from particular person contributor to center administration. After which from there, it actually tightens up, and there’s an enormous leap down when it comes to roles on the VP, SVP, et cetera ranges.
So, one, the numbers are form of in opposition to us in that sense. Two, there’s a pipeline difficulty within the sense that generally for these very sought-after C-suite roles, there’s any person who’s been “in line,” quote, unquote, or being groomed for that position for 10 years or one thing that we didn’t even find out about, and there’s completely no approach we might have made ourself that individual, or achieved something to advocate more durable for ourselves.
The third factor is that the upper you stand up within the group, the stakes are intrinsically greater. And so, that’s the place gender discrimination, different kinds of racism or bias, aware or unconscious, could end in girls, and particularly girls of shade, not getting the advantage of the doubt as a lot as males. It’s that complete, “It’s a must to have the monitor file,” versus “We see your potential.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: I additionally surprise how relationships play into this.
CYNTHIA PONG: Yeah. I’m so glad you introduced that up, as a result of I feel that’s one thing that generally as girls, as relational and as robust on constructing relationships as we’re, I feel we could possibly be a bit extra strategic about who we’re making ourselves seen to, and that isn’t at all times people who find themselves in our similar firm or group.
It’s a must to be seen to sufficient of the correct individuals in order that sufficient of these individuals will grow to be your sponsors or champions, say your title in rooms that you simply’re not in, nominate you for awards and stretch alternatives, make key connections for you. These are the important thing to development, and generally we could deprioritize that.
AMY BERNSTEIN: I additionally assume it’s essential, significantly for ladies who don’t ask for what they need, to say that they need the promotion to the VP degree, to the C-suite, as a result of it’s important to let individuals know that you simply’re bold. However you additionally have to say, “If I don’t get this…” You don’t need to say it explicitly, however the message will be, “That is essential to me, and I’m not going to stay round for 10 extra years ready for it.”
CYNTHIA PONG: Appropriate.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper?
CYNTHIA PONG: That’s so highly effective. Nonetheless, there’s many the reason why we could really feel that we can not try this. I feel one factor that’s a gendered factor for us as girls is we really feel extraordinarily accountable to our phrase. And it’s like, if I say one thing and I don’t observe by means of to the tee 100,000%, and early or whatnot – like, the over-delivering – then we could take it very personally. The hyper-self-criticism can kick in. And so, that stops us from really even saying sure issues out loud, but it surely’s so key. However that’s why having individuals you possibly can belief to apply saying out loud to first, then you possibly can apply saying it, hear your self saying it, then perhaps in a number of months, you possibly can say it to somebody who’s a decision-maker.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, be my coach, let’s say, 20 years in the past.
CYNTHIA PONG: Okay.
AMY BERNSTEIN: I acquired a name. In my enterprise, I’d have been a senior-ish mid-level supervisor at that time, and I acquired a name from a headhunter about an editor-in-chief job, which might have been the high-level job, the one I secretly needed however would by no means have had the braveness to say out loud. And I responded with concern and insecurity. My first thought was, “Why would they need me?”
CYNTHIA PONG: No.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper?
CYNTHIA PONG: Yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And I mentioned, “No, I don’t assume so.” After which I lied and mentioned, “I’m actually completely happy right here.” And I might really feel my coronary heart racing. I might really feel myself simply form of… The voices in my head have been shouting. What would you’ve mentioned to me then?
CYNTHIA PONG: Oh, this can be a powerful one. First, I’d have talked about, let’s unpack what’s really occurring with the voices which are screaming in your head. The place are they coming from? Actually, what are they saying? You really listening to it outdoors of your head or getting it on paper, no matter is feasible, is definitely going to alter how you’re feeling about it as properly. That’s the primary set of issues. We’ve to unpack that, and if we don’t… I don’t even care about this one editor-in-chief place, proper? There shall be others. If we don’t really unravel this, it’s going to indicate up once more, and it’s going to stymie you once more.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, I hear concern once I speak to youthful girls or different girls who’re being supplied that nice leap of a promotion in some kind. I usually hear what you simply described, and to me, it seems like concern. And what I discover myself saying is, whenever you really feel your self responding with concern, that flight form of response, what you owe your self is a bit of area to assume.
CYNTHIA PONG: Sure.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And what you say within the second is, “I would like a bit of time to consider this. Give me 24 hours,” no matter, after which go speak to individuals you belief.
CYNTHIA PONG: Sure. Similar to you mentioned, you possibly can at all times hit pause. After we really feel rushed, that’s once we take advantage of errors. So, don’t be complicit in false timelines on your self. You go proper again to the individual, to the headhunter, “Thanks a lot on your inquiry. I’ll get again to you.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s actually, actually helpful. So, if you happen to actually wish to transfer up at your organization, there must be a job so that you can transfer into, proper?
CYNTHIA PONG: Ooh, okay. I like this. Sure. And I really feel just like the underlying assumption is that the position to maneuver into has to preexist. It has to exist already.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, okay, is {that a} dangerous assumption?
CYNTHIA PONG: Perhaps, perhaps not. I feel there’s at all times room for alternative. Why not suggest a brand new position? That is a part of that exhibiting initiative and precise management, actually, that I feel is essential for us to display and present moderately than inform as girls. But when we’re like, “Oh, I observed that there’s this hole right here, and the corporate might actually profit from a cross-functional position in X, and the title could possibly be this or that, doesn’t actually matter, however the scope can be such and such, and I wish to know what you consider that.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: And what you mentioned there was such an essential level to make. The corporate can actually profit.
CYNTHIA PONG: Sure.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You’ve acquired to make the enterprise case. It might probably’t be all about you.
CYNTHIA PONG: No.
AMY BERNSTEIN: The corporate doesn’t exist to make us completely happy.
CYNTHIA PONG: It doesn’t.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Nicely, thanks a lot, Cynthia. I actually want I had identified you all these years in the past, however I’m so completely happy to make your acquaintance and have this dialog with you now.
CYNTHIA PONG: You’re most welcome. It’s been such a delight.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And now to these two COOs I discussed earlier, Megan Bock of Federato, which is an organization that makes use of machine studying to evaluate threat, and Lauren Reyes of the YMCA of Better Boston. Megan and Lauren, did you’re feeling caught earlier than you made it to higher administration? Describe what that was like. Lauren, why don’t you go first?
LAUREN REYES: Positive. Yeah. So, I’ve had the privilege of working in a single group the vast majority of my skilled profession, however positively didn’t really feel as if I used to be at all times valued and appreciated as a lot as I felt I ought to have been in sure spots.
So, I can positively recall particularly a few occasions. One was once I had been in some place for nearly 10 years, and I feel it was them seeing me at all times because the individual I got here into the group as and never because the individual I felt I had grown into, realizing that it didn’t matter what I did. They thought I used to be nice, however there have been some of us that have been at all times going to see me as that younger 20-something-year-old who began with the group, and I made a decision that I wanted to go with a view to be seen as one thing higher than that.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. What about you, Megan?
MEGAN BOCK: I completely felt caught in that kind of center management-type position. You’re chargeable for protecting your group motivated, protecting them educated, protecting them rowing in the correct course. I used to be very attuned to creating positive that I did a very good job, that I understood what the entire expectations have been, and was doing all of that and extra.
I discovered myself in a few totally different conditions, being a center supervisor, main a group of people, however having the senior position above me open. So, I used to be primarily doing each. And so, threw my title within the hat to say, “Hey, I’m doing plenty of this position now and would really like the chance to tackle that title, tackle that duty.” And I used to be handed over for that promotion, was informed that they wanted to rent somebody from the surface who had achieved the position earlier than, had a confirmed monitor file.
And that’s the form of factor that really will get me actually pissed off, as a result of how am I going to get expertise doing the position if you happen to’re required to have expertise doing the position earlier than you’ll have a chance to do the position? Proper? So, it’s a bit of little bit of a catch-22.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
MEGAN BOCK: The man they introduced in was, the truth is, not tremendous professional, didn’t deliver further worth, and I now needed to prepare him on how we did issues round right here, and was persevering with to do plenty of his work that he was now delegating to me. Now, that was the impetus that led me to leaving that firm and taking over a brand new position elsewhere. However that expectation that you’ve the expertise has been a notable theme, and the laborious half is, you don’t have the expertise till you’ve a chance to have the expertise.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Nicely, as you mentioned, a complete catch-22. Lauren, what about you? Did you attain out to senior administration and say, “I need a promotion. I need a senior position”?
LAUREN REYES: Yeah. So, I’ll say, I do know I’m lucky within the group I work for. The tradition is a bit of bit extra “kumbaya” than I feel in some for-profit areas, and even in another nonprofit areas. And so, I’m lucky that I felt like from essentially the most half… After I began, I had supervisors who actually cared about my growth and my progress, and that they actually poured into me. However what I used to be discovering was that it was nonetheless going to be on their timeframe and never on my timeframe. And I do know numerous occasions, we give a lot flak to the youthful era as a result of they’re like, “I wish to come out and I wish to be a CEO on day one in all my employment,” and we notice that that may’t occur, proper?
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper.
LAUREN REYES: And so, I actually took a while to consider, “Is that this what I’m doing? Am I anticipating one thing greater than what I ought to count on at this stage of my profession?” I at all times got here into areas for essentially the most half being the youngest individual of my friends. And I feel whenever you’re additionally the youngest individual after which one of many few females within the area, I feel that may also be one thing. After which I’ve sometimes been, in plenty of my profession, the one individual of shade in that area as properly.
And so, it’s like this multitude of issues that I’m strolling in and making an attempt to actually consider, and guarantee that I’m not feeling one thing that’s not likely there or making excuses of one thing that I’ve simply made up. And so, I did have conversations with my supervisor to say, “That is what I wish to do. I’m prepared for extra, and this is the reason.” I felt prefer it was crucial for me to return with the examples of how I had confirmed myself and the examples of how I had achieved the issues they requested me, and exceeded these issues, and brought on further tasks.
And on this explicit occasion, once I felt caught, I used to be proposing to make a transition to shift from an operational position to a management growth position. And I felt that I had achieved plenty of issues that confirmed why I had the expertise in that area, why I’d be a very good match for that place. And once I was having these conversations with them, they mentioned, “Oh, sure. You could have achieved these items. We agree. That is nice. We’re actually concerned with seeing you on this position.”
After which nothing actually occurred with it. And I adopted up, and I mentioned, “I’m simply checking in to see what the standing of that is.” They usually mentioned, “Oh, we’re nonetheless having some choices and conversations about what this position would possibly seem like,” as a result of it was going to be a brand new position within the group. After which it was solely after they came upon {that a} YMCA from a distinct state was recruiting me to return work for them. And it was solely then that they mentioned, “Oh, properly, perhaps we’d like to consider this position, and if it’s one thing that you simply’d actually be good for.” And so, that was irritating in plenty of methods, as a result of I felt prefer it shouldn’t take you caring that I’m leaving so that you can see my worth.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, you’ve talked a bit of bit about this analysis course of. You form of dimension your self up. You dimension the group up. Lauren, speak us by means of how that labored for you, “Am I prepared for this?” How did you go about answering that query for your self?
LAUREN REYES: Yeah. It’s fascinating, as a result of in my position now daily, even in my position as COO, I ask myself on a regular basis, “Am I prepared for this?” I don’t know. However positively, I feel once I began my profession, I’d have thought that I used to be prepared for every part and had all the talents I wanted. And sure, I can be taught, however I’m already fairly good. And I feel, clearly, as you’re confronted with totally different challenges each single day, you notice, “Oh, there are plenty of issues that I nonetheless have left to be taught.”
And I went by means of a growth program the place the entire objective was actually targeted on serving to individuals go from a program-level position to grow to be an govt director. And in that, a part of it was self-evaluation. You probably did plenty of self-assessments. And on the finish of it, you get this report that was actually strong, and the suggestions that you simply get is all suggestions that you simply’ve… It’s a self-assessment. No person else put in on this however you, and plenty of the issues that got here out of there have been actually eye-opening for me.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Like what? Give us some examples.
LAUREN REYES: Oh, the one which jumps out essentially the most, as a result of I argued about it, though I self-assessed, I did a self-assessment, was, it mentioned, “Lauren has little regard for individuals’s well being and private well-being.” I shared this with my pal, and I mentioned, “What are they speaking about? I really feel like I’m a reasonably caring individual.” And he or she mentioned, “Oh, no.” And he or she rattled off fairly rapidly three examples.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Wow.
LAUREN REYES: This was in a pre-pandemic world, so I’ll preface that, but it surely was any person… And the instance she gave was, I had a workers individual name me at some point and mentioned, “Hey, I’ve a sore throat. I’m not going to have the ability to come to work immediately.” And I mentioned, “Okay, nice.” However I used to be upset. I used to be aggravated. I rolled my eyes. I imply, the individual was on the telephone, so that they didn’t see me, however I mentioned, “A sore throat? Oh, come on. Come into the workplace.”
And it was a few of these cases that after I had time to mirror upon how I evaluated myself, how individuals have been viewing me, and I mentioned, “There’s no one else that’s inflicting this difficulty besides me. There’s nobody else that’s telling people who find themselves sick, ‘Oh, it’s best to simply come into the workplace.’” And though I didn’t say these phrases to them, that was the angle that I had. So, clearly, that got here throughout in any form of conversations I used to be having with them about in the event that they wanted further time or in the event that they weren’t capable of perhaps meet project deadlines as a result of they weren’t feeling properly. After which there was one other one about how I’d get actually excited concerning the starting of a challenge, however I’d actually lose curiosity partway by means of, after which generally not full it with the identical enthusiasm that I had began the challenge. And I used to be like, “Man, that’s 100% true.”
And I feel what it allowed me to do, although, can be higher consider what roles I must be in. Do I have to be in that position the place I’m the doer doing it daily, or am I higher in a strategic position the place I’m having that dialog and producing concepts to then move on the precise day-to-day, in-the-detail work to any person else?
But it surely’s very fascinating when it’s important to maintain the mirror as much as your self and acknowledge, “These are ability gaps that I’ve,” or “These are emotional intelligence gaps that I’ve,” and “How do I take management about going and fixing that moderately than form of utilizing it as an excuse for why I’m not getting the roles I need or why I’m not excelling within the ways in which I want I used to be?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, Megan, how about you? Was there a course of the place you kind of evaluated your self to determine whether or not you have been prepared for that massive leap into senior administration? What did that seem like?
MEGAN BOCK: So, I joke about this, as a result of if you happen to don’t chortle about issues, you would possibly in any other case cry. However the 12 months I turned 40, I used to be a senior vp in a big insurance coverage group, and that occurred to be the 12 months that I, primary, acquired divorced; quantity two, left my job; and quantity three, did some actual soul-searching on what it was that I needed to do going ahead. And so, much less concerning the feeling-stuck-in-a-middle-management form of position and wanting to interrupt by means of to that subsequent degree, extra round… Simply being on the subsequent degree isn’t essentially sufficient. Proper? There’s nonetheless a component of, are you passionate concerning the issues that you’re doing on a day-to-day foundation? Do you get motivated to indicate as much as work within the morning and truly coach individuals or set technique, or guarantee execution is going on? And the reply for me was no. The position that I used to be in, though it was a senior management position, and I felt like, “Okay. That is the place I believed I needed to go,” it wasn’t filling me up in all these methods. And as you simply heard, there have been different methods during which I felt caught. There’s simply plenty of integration and work that goes on as a result of work isn’t the one factor that impacts our lives. There’s an entire lot there.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. I wish to ask two questions of each of you. One in every of them is, was there a set off that kind of set you on this path into senior management the place you mentioned, “You already know what? Sufficient. I’ve been doing the job. I’m not getting the promotion,” or in your case, Lauren, “I’ve acquired the entire technical abilities. I’m engaged on the tender abilities. I’ve had it”? Is there a second the place you simply mentioned, “I’ve had it”? Lauren, I’ll ask you first.
LAUREN REYES: Yeah. So, within the authentic instance I gave, there was most likely not that definitive second. In a later time interval, I positively had that second. I used to be in a scenario the place they promoted any person who was my peer to grow to be my supervisor. And once I requested about why that call had been made, they mentioned, “Oh, we felt that you simply wanted some extra wins.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: What does that imply?
LAUREN REYES: Proper. Proper. What does that imply? They couldn’t actually articulate it properly. And what I then did was, I mentioned, “Nicely, that is what I see. That is what I see that different particular person has achieved, and that is what I see I’ve achieved.” And it was nothing in opposition to this particular person in any respect. We have been simply serving totally different communities. The group that particular person was serving was an prosperous group, the place there have been boundless sources.
And so, individuals had cash and so they got here, and so they did, and so they partaked, and income was nice. The communities that I used to be serving weren’t that approach. We have been having to do much more with quite a bit much less. And so, I mentioned, you realize, “let me clarify to you the wins that I really feel that I’ve had, and this individual has these too, however they’re totally different. And if you happen to have been to place that particular person in my scenario, I don’t assume they might’ve been as profitable as a result of they don’t perceive easy methods to work throughout the finite sources that we had obtainable.” However I spotted in that second that I wasn’t going to alter their opinion on that. And so, at that second, I really mentioned to… I nonetheless generally don’t know what possessed me to say this, however we had our management transition. And so, it was the COO on the time that I used to be sitting with. It was the primary time I’d ever met him, and we’re having this dialog. I’m explaining to him that I used to be pissed off that they’d promoted one in all my friends with out even a dialog previous to about what that was going to seem like, and I mentioned, “It’s clear to me that you simply all don’t see my worth right here. And I do know my worth, so I’m going to go someplace that may recognize me.” And so, I informed him, I mentioned, “I’ll be passed by {the summertime}.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, boy.
LAUREN REYES: And he form of simply gave me this look as if to say, “Oh my gosh, what did I simply step into?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Ooh.
LAUREN REYES: As a result of he was new, and he was making choices below the steering of people that had been there longer than him. And so, I feel in that second, he began to assume, Did we make the correct determination? And I don’t know Lauren, however is it value shedding her? I’m undecided. And so, he simply mentioned, “I’m actually sorry to listen to that. I actually hope that we will do one thing to alter your thoughts.” He’s like, “I don’t actually know you properly, however I’ve heard good issues about you, and I hope that you’ll stick with us.” And I didn’t.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. Yup. Yup. Nicely, okay, so now I wish to hear your story of being fed up, Megan. Inform us.
MEGAN BOCK: I had an identical expertise. I wouldn’t say there was a swap flip for me, however I had the chance. I’d been promoted a number of totally different occasions, however nonetheless at that center supervisor degree. And I had plenty of publicity to govt management, and I had a large number of alternatives the place I used to be constructing abilities, the place I used to be operating tasks, driving affect, and had expressed my need to develop my profession, tackle that senior-level position, and was kind of rebuffed. Proper? You’re in that succession planning. It’s a promo inside two to 5 years, and I’m pondering to myself, “Okay. You’re making an attempt to say the issues which are going to make me really feel okay, however two to 5 years? That’s quite a bit.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Whoever stood up and cheered at, “Let’s speak about this in two to 5 years.”
MEGAN BOCK: Proper. Proper.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Proper?
MEGAN BOCK: And on the similar time, I used to be witnessing the best way these govt leaders ran their companies, confirmed up, set technique, made massive choices that had actual impacts on the group, on the individuals who I had led at numerous factors, who I interacted with on a day-to-day foundation, and I used to be simply feeling like, “Oh, I can do it higher than that.” I’ve a approach of really driving ahead the values that our firm says we maintain, and pulling that by means of into technique and execution and management, and needed my likelihood to show that out.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Good. Nicely, so one of many issues I observed as I take a look at each of your profession paths is that you simply have been each keen to take dangers to get to the extent you needed to achieve. So, Megan, you moved from one insurance coverage firm to a different. You probably did a tour of obligation as a marketing consultant, proper?
MEGAN BOCK: Completely.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You additionally employed an govt coach. You knew one thing wanted to alter for you, and also you have been going to make it change with a view to obtain this degree you needed. Discuss us by means of that complete line of pondering, that course of.
MEGAN BOCK: Yeah. There’s a few factors that you simply simply known as out, and so they kind of construct on one another. I’ve talked by means of that frustration and feeling of stuckness as a center supervisor. And given all of the experiences I had had, I spotted, You already know what? It might be a threat, but it surely’s value taking it to use for and grow to be a senior-level chief in one other group, as a result of the corporate the place you’re working has their very own greatest pursuits in thoughts. Proper? It’s not private. It’s enterprise, however they’re used to me within the position that I’m in the place I’m making a very good affect. And so, there’s a deterrent. There’s a draw back to selling me on.
While you work in one other group or apply to a different group, they see you for who you’re immediately. They see you for the accomplishments that you simply’re capable of articulate, and the potential of what you’re keen to join and do. And so, that was a little bit of a threat, however paid off in my case, and that’s how I made that shift to senior-level management. The kind of subsequent shift that you simply describe is hanging up my hat on the insurance coverage business.
My complete profession, practically 20 years was spent in that one business, in that one trajectory. And now I wish to do one thing totally different, and I’ve acquired to determine, A, what it’s; B, easy methods to do it; and C, collect the braveness that’s wanted to do it. So, having an govt coach actually helped me to try this, gave me some frameworks to form of map it out, perceive what’s the stuff that I really like to do, and what would possibly that translate into.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And so, whenever you employed that govt coach, did you rent that coach with the concept that she or he would assist you to get to this promotion?
MEGAN BOCK: That particular coach was aimed toward serving to me discover a profession pivot that’s going to be extra fulfilling. It wasn’t with the top in thoughts of the place I’m now, however I’ll say, doing that work, being open to that threat, and having the braveness to attempt new issues could be very a lot what has led me to the COO position I’ve immediately at a expertise firm that’s serving the insurance coverage business, and it’s a pleasant full circle for me. However there’s no finish in sight, proper? I’m nonetheless studying, nonetheless rising, have a distinct but additionally unimaginable govt coach now.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Nice. So, Lauren, you form of pushed your self out the door, however speak about… You already know, you really relocated first for a VP job in Tampa, then a COO job again in Boston. How did that willingness to take the leap issue into your profession path?
LAUREN REYES: Yeah. So, I knew very early on once I began on the YMCA that I like the group, and I like the work that it did, not simply in my area people, however throughout the globe. And I felt strongly that I’d most likely not go away the Y. In addition they have an incredible retirement plan, so I used to be like, That is most likely the place the place I’m going to be for the long run. And lucky sufficient that I made plenty of good connections over time with individuals from throughout the nation working for the Y. And I knew that I used to be obsessed with serving individuals and serving to to contribute to constructive change on the planet, however I didn’t essentially at all times see that precise factor replicated on the Y the place I used to be. However I knew that it existed at YMCAs on the market, and no matter model that seemed like for the following evolution of Lauren and who I used to be. And so, once I acquired into these areas the place I used to be feeling caught, the place I used to be feeling like, “This area is not aligning or serving me,” it was comforting in a technique to know that I might have change however nonetheless even have familiarity.
And so, I might search change in a brand new position, in a brand new location, however with a company that I knew, and content material that I felt actually snug I might do properly. And so, I used to be lucky that I had a very good assist system. I used to be married on the time, and he was very supportive of me following my path and the place I needed to be. I’ve youngsters that very a lot take a look at a brand new metropolis as a brand new journey, and that’s not at all times the case. And so, plenty of the explanations, I feel, persons are afraid to relocate didn’t exist for me. Lots of people say, “Oh, my youngsters can be devastated,” or “My accomplice perhaps wouldn’t be supportive,” or the entire totally different causes. And fortunately, plenty of these individuals have been very supportive in my life and made it very simple for me to actually take a look at the chance and say, “Is that this a very good alternative for me, for us? Can I’m going to a spot the place I really feel like I can actually assist contribute and make issues higher? And does it maintain me on what I felt as my journey and my path?”
And I say that as a result of I used to be in a program years in the past, and so they introduced up the thought of profession mapping, and so they mentioned, “The place is it that you simply wish to be whenever you retire? And what age are you going to be whenever you retire? After which what it’s worthwhile to do is then work backwards, after which I’ll inform you what number of totally different profession strikes you’ve left between now and whenever you wish to retire.” And that was actually useful for me, as a result of it allowed me to see… Due to that nice retirement plan, I deliberate on retiring early. And so, I mentioned, “Okay. I don’t have a ton of strikes left to make essentially, and I wish to guarantee that every one counts and will get me nearer to the place I wish to be.”
I feel generally once we do issues with out intention, we find yourself following and chasing shiny objects, or issues that perhaps sound like a very good thought, however actually aren’t placing you any nearer to the place you in the end wish to be. And so, having that profession map achieved, it was simpler for me to take a look at the alternatives and say, “Is that this actually one thing that’s simply good for proper now, or does it actually assist get me nearer to the place I in the end wish to be?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Nicely, your story actually resonates with me, that self-reflection, but additionally that honesty, that basically astringent honesty that you simply don’t have that many profession strikes left. So, that sobers you up actual quick. However then additionally the braveness, each of you, Lauren and Megan… it took guts to make these strikes. You have been keen to take the leap with the concept that, “You already know what? It won’t work, however I’m not completely happy proper now, so I have to do one thing.”
So, you take duty for your self, and that basically resonates for me. It’s how I acquired to Harvard Enterprise Overview, was realizing… I imply, I don’t know if I mentioned I used to be caught once I was interested by it, however I positive needed to personal what a part of it was my duty, after which I needed to actually put myself on the market and check out for one thing I wasn’t positive I used to be going to get. It represented an enormous step-up for me. And shifting throughout the nation, the prospect of shifting from San Francisco to Boston, was someway much less formidable to me than the prospect of discovering out that, you realize what? I really didn’t deserve the job – the concern of rejection. That was virtually more durable for me to cope with. So, that’s what I imply I put myself on the market. I kind of dared myself to deal with that, and man, am I glad I did. However that concern of rejection is a part of what stored me caught in place for too a few years. Does that resonate for both of you?
LAUREN REYES: Sure. I joke with my mother on a regular basis that I really feel like I’ve been most likely not certified for each job that I’ve utilized for and gotten, so there’s at all times that concern. And in fact, I used to be certified. I had what it took, however there’s at all times that a part of you, that self-doubt, that simply says, “This isn’t for me,” or “I’m not adequate,” or “This isn’t my alternative.” And I feel it positively is sensible that we have now that little inside voice that tells us all these various things, and we generally simply need to knock it out and say, “No, I’ve acquired this.”
MEGAN BOCK: One factor I simply wish to add. And agree, having the braveness to take the chance is completely an element. I additionally assume that the so-called threat is blown as much as really feel larger than maybe it truly is. And listen to me out for a second. It’s like, as I’m interested by shifting firms in order that I might tackle a promoted place, the chance is, I don’t get that job, after which I keep the place I’m, and there’s actually no affect, or the chance is, I do get that job, and I hate it.
Nicely, what’s the end result? It’s not that I find yourself penniless and incapable of caring for myself, proper? It’s like, okay, properly, then you definately discover a new job, otherwise you return to the outdated firm. I share that solely to say, I do know I’ve felt ingrained in me that these sorts of issues are very dangerous, however that’s my inside critic, the one which’s telling me, “Oh, properly, you will not be profitable at doing this.” However if you happen to really step again and also you take a look at the information, it’s like, “Oh, this isn’t that massive of a threat.” And so, it’s one which I’m keen to lean into, as a result of the upside potential right here is completely value it.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And the draw back, the sure draw back is staying the place you’re.
MEGAN BOCK: Precisely. Precisely. And acknowledge that not all people has the identical set of circumstances, and the chance could possibly be totally different to others. However I do assume that there’s a little bit of like… It’s our evolution. We’ve a negativity bias. We predict that it’s extra dangerous than it’s. And if you happen to take a look at it, it might really be a a lot simpler swing to take.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And significantly, in case your objective is to get the promotion you consider you deserve, to achieve a degree that you simply really feel that you’ve earned, there’s far more draw back to not taking the leap. I’ve one other query for you. So, Cynthia talked concerning the significance of creating your self seen to influential individuals outdoors your group. Megan, did you consider that as you have been interested by your subsequent massive transfer whenever you didn’t get the job you needed?
MEGAN BOCK: That’s an consciousness and one thing that I’ve gotten way more intentional about as years have gone on, most likely not one thing I used to be doing terribly successfully in these earlier phases or once I was in that center administration place, and I feel most likely falsely believed that primarily the quickest equation to get me from the place I used to be right into a senior management position was to do a greater job on the particular position mandate that I already had.
And I took that to imply, Okay, spend all my time and power specializing in doing as greatest a job as I probably can on each single one in all my accountabilities, when what might need been true is that time that Cynthia introduced up, which is, I poured loads of additional hours and power into an space of diminishing returns, – ensuring that each “i” was dotted and each “t” was crossed on each single attribute of my job description versus redeploying that power, a few of these hours, to being seen, creating relationships, and maybe creating coaches or mentors or sponsors outdoors of the group.
So I didn’t try this on the time, however I feel it’s very related, as a result of that may be a massive a part of what I did once I was leaving the business, making a consulting group, after which in that consulting group, attending to know all kinds of different leaders of different companies, and exploring the methods during which relationships there might really create extra alternatives to do totally different and extra enjoyable issues.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. That’s one factor that stunned me as I moved up by means of numerous organizations, was how essential it was to develop an exterior fame, and the way way more essential it acquired as you moved greater and better. How does that sound to you, Lauren?
LAUREN REYES: Sure. Networking, I feel, is essential, and it’s a massive a part of how I’m within the seat that I’m in immediately. So, whereas I’ve spent most of my profession with the YMCA, I’ve been in 4 totally different YMCAs. So, every one is working like its personal separate firm. And I used to be very intentional about growing relationships with people who have been in numerous YMCAs, in numerous roles, in numerous elements of the nation, and having connections to them allowed me to be chosen to serve on nationwide teams and challenge groups, planning committees for various conferences that gave me a distinct degree of connectedness to the general group, but additionally publicity to totally different individuals.
And so, this chance, this position that I’m in proper now, when it got here up, the CEO right here was new to the YMCA. He hadn’t had any expertise with the group, however he did make telephone calls to totally different leaders across the Y motion to ask for attainable strategies of individuals he ought to speak to for this position. And my title got here up from a number of totally different individuals, and that’s as a result of I did step out of my very own location to make sure that I used to be constructing these relationships. And so, it’s positively been key to me, though I’ve been with the YMCA for more often than not.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. It’s very strategic of you. So, I wish to ask for you each to offer recommendation to our listener, Maggie, who wrote to us about feeling caught in her present center administration position. So, let me describe the scenario. Maggie’s labored for her firm for 19 years. She was promoted to supervisor about eight years in the past. And during the last 12 months, she’s utilized for quite a lot of senior administration roles, and has been vocal about desirous to be promoted. However thus far, nothing has panned out.
She’s actively in search of profession mentorship from leaders inside and out of doors her division, and has accomplished management programs that she’s been nominated to attend. And whereas she’s described her management model as extra quiet and that she prefers to steer from behind, as she places it, she will be extra authoritative when she must be. Regardless of her efforts to be seen as a pacesetter, she’s having a tough time getting different leaders to see her management potential.
Whereas her efficiency critiques are glorious, and the suggestions is basically to, “Preserve doing what you’re doing,” she’s been informed not directly that she’s not prepared for senior administration, that her profession position fits her as a result of she’s good at it and that she’s too good. Her mentors have prompt that to assist her case, to assist her case, she ought to begin providing her opinion on issues that she’s not an professional in to assist leaders see her as a supply of perception on extra than simply her slender areas of experience. So, what do you guys consider that recommendation?
LAUREN REYES: I’d not try this personally. Folks can sense whenever you don’t know, and I feel generally it’s extra harmful to supply recommendation on one thing that you simply actually haven’t any information of moderately than simply to be trustworthy and say, “You already know what? I don’t know.” I imply, actually, on this case, I really feel as if her group has proven her time and time once more what they consider her and the way they worth her. And I feel they do worth her, however they worth her within the position that she’s in, and so they don’t see her worth past that.
And so, I’d say for her, “are you okay with that?” As a result of they’ve proven you very constantly that that’s what they assume and that that’s what they’re going to proceed to do. And the frustration of not having any legitimate suggestions primarily about how she will enhance, I feel for me, that simply says they’re most likely not invested in seeing her get promoted or have a future past the position that she’s presently in.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Something so as to add, Megan?
MEGAN BOCK: I fully agree with Lauren. Eight years in a present position with stellar suggestions, however zero assist or course in direction of growing into that subsequent position? The message is fairly clear. I suppose I’d additionally encourage her to not take it personally, to actually separate that out. Her employer doesn’t get to resolve her inherent worth. Proper? She is deciding her inherent worth. And actually, the information says she’s including unimaginable worth within the position that she’s in. And if she’d wish to tackle new challenges, then it most likely is time to search for different locations the place there is perhaps extra alternative so as to add worth instantly in that kind of higher-level approach.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, do you assume there’s any approach for her to alter the notion of her potential throughout the group? What do you assume, Lauren?
LAUREN REYES: That is most likely a character take a look at between how any person would select to go about this. For me, I’d take a look at it and say, “I don’t wish to be in a company the place after 19 years, I nonetheless need to battle so that you can see the potential in me.” So, for me, I’d say, “It’s not value my power and energy. I’m going to simply go on to different locations.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Do you agree, Megan?
MEGAN BOCK: The one additional factor that kind of happens to me is, how can she perhaps attempt one other tactic that may be helpful to her along with giving one more alternative to this group? I don’t disagree that they’ve primarily made clear who it’s they’re, however there could possibly be a approach the place Maggie might have some further enjoyable and construct some further abilities, which, if we return to needing to have the expertise earlier than you’ve the chance to have the expertise, might fill a few of these gaps for her, to the extent that there are alternatives to do work that’s independently motivated, that’s self-guided, which might be figuring out an issue that exists or a chance that must be crammed.
That could possibly be one thing for her to do some challenge work, actually vet that out. Create a plan. Create a framework. Get individuals concerned. Mobilize groups to kind of fill that want, and have some enjoyable whereas she’s doing it. It’s a chance to doubtlessly interact another leaders than her direct chain that’s been giving her form of meh suggestions, could possibly be a chance to create a sponsorship-type relationship.
And both approach, if she finds a distinct segment or an issue assertion or a spot that makes her excited to do some additional work, to create options, that could possibly be a technique to construct some abilities, construct some relationships, and provides it one other shot to see, “Okay. I’m fulfilling what you’ll count on of senior management,” which isn’t executing current methods and steering, however as an alternative figuring out challenges, fixing them, mobilizing the group to do work, and use that as a platform on which to speak about her additional growth.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Nicely, the one factor I’d add to what you’ve each mentioned is that that is precisely the time to begin engaged on fame constructing. Get on the market. Go to conferences. Submit on LinkedIn, and don’t weigh in on matters you don’t know something about. That’s not going to get you anyplace. However do challenge your worth, your information, your expertise out into the world, and see what it says again to you.
MEGAN BOCK: Yeah, completely.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, this has been nice. I so recognize the candor and your willingness to share your tales. Thanks each, Megan and Lauren.
MEGAN BOCK: Completely. Comfortable to do it.
LAUREN REYES: Thanks.
AMANDA KERSEY: That was Ladies at Work host Amy Bernstein talking with COOs Megan Bock and Lauren Reyes—and earlier than them, profession coach Cynthia Pong. These conversations have been a part of an episode initially titled “Tips on how to Handle: Rising from Center to Senior Administration.”
HBR On Management shall be again subsequent Wednesday with one other hand-picked dialog from Harvard Enterprise Overview. If this episode helped you, share it with your folks and colleagues, and observe the present on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you take heed to podcasts. Whilst you’re there, think about leaving us a assessment.
While you’re prepared for extra podcasts, articles, case research, books, and movies with the world’s high enterprise and administration specialists, discover all of it at HBR.org.
This episode was produced by Hannah Bates and me, Amanda Kersey. On Management’s group contains Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew. Music by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.