BRIAN KENNY: On July eleventh, 2023, the Senate Everlasting Subcommittee on Investigations convened a listening to on a proposed merger of the PGA Tour and its upstart rival, the LIV Golf tour. Golf could also be a genial sport, however there was nothing cordial concerning the demeanor of the committee members who teed off on PGA Tour executives for over three hours, firing query as in expressing their considerations concerning the configuration of the deal and its implications on the worldwide stage. It’s a listening to that simply weeks earlier would’ve been unimaginable as a result of since its launch in 2022, the LIV tour was vilified by the PGA Tour because the avowed enemy of golf, the beneficiary of a wealthy, however ruthless international regime looking for to cleanse its repute by affiliation with the game. The PGA Tour was the keeper of the flame, sworn to uphold the integrity of the traditional however honorable sport. One which has remained nearly unchanged for the reason that guidelines of golf had been first formalized in Lieth, Scotland in 1744, however as we regularly see, disruption occurs whenever you least anticipate it. At this time on Chilly Name, we’ve invited Professor Alex MacKay to debate his case titled, “LIV Golf.” I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’re listening to Chilly Name on the HBR Podcast Community. Alex MacKay’s Analysis focuses on issues of competitors, together with pricing, demand, and market construction. And right this moment we’re right here to speak a few topic close to and expensive to my coronary heart, which is golf. Alex, thanks for becoming a member of me.
ALEX MACKAY: Brian, it’s a pleasure to be right here.
BRIAN KENNY: I used to be very excited after I heard that you simply had been penning this case as a result of I’m a golfer. I actually love the sport and like anyone who follows golf, this was an incredible sequence of occasions that began again in 2022 and continues to unfold in actually sudden methods. So I feel individuals will love listening to extra about this as a case of disruptive innovation inside an present sports activities league, but in addition among the drama that surrounds it and among the politics. So thanks for being right here to speak about it.
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, it’s been very thrilling for certain.
BRIAN KENNY: So why don’t we simply begin by asking you what the central difficulty is within the case and what your Chilly Name is to start out the dialogue at school?
ALEX MACKAY: I’ll simply present just a little little bit of background. This case is ready on the finish of 2022. So LIV Golf had simply accomplished its first season and instantly when it launched in June, issues bought very contentious between LIV Golf and the PGA Tour. Instantly, some gamers from the PGA Tour that participated in LIV had been suspended, and gamers that type of had been on either side of this divide had been saying very contentious issues to one another. In August, LIV Golf truly launched an antitrust lawsuit in opposition to the PGA Tour, which accused them of committing anti-competitive practices that had been authorized violations. And in September, the PGA Tour filed a countersuit. The DOJ mentioned it was going to analyze the actions the PGA Tour had taken in opposition to LIV Golf. So it was a really heated time, and the important thing query we deal with at school is or we kick issues off with is, ought to the PGA Tour proceed to struggle LIV Golf or ought to it attempt to cooperate? Now, we’ve had an replace since then on what the PGA Tour has tried to do, and I feel it’s nonetheless useful to consider that query in gentle of the modifications within the response of the gamers. However the second query we get to, and I feel it’s nonetheless essential to consider from a enterprise perspective, is ought to the PGA Tour have executed something in a different way? And you may consider that in gentle of what they did in 2022, however you can too consider that main as much as 2022 way back to 2019, 2015, and even earlier than that. How did the PGA Tour permit the entry of LIV to occur, and did they take the fitting actions in response?
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. These are nice questions and we’ll contact on a few of that. Why did you resolve to write down this case?
ALEX MACKAY: So I educate a course on competitors, antitrust and regulation, and my analysis covers these similar themes. So I’m very concerned about questions on market energy when a big agency has the flexibility to exert affect over its prospects and different market individuals. And this example with the PGA Tour and LIV Golf is definitely an important instance of that. We’ve a brand new entrant in a market with a big established competitor, so we are able to consider the responses by this massive established competitor, and particularly, the authorized limits of the conduct as established by antitrust legislation.
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, I imply, as I learn the case, I used to be serious about the truth that it appears to me like most sports activities leagues are monopolistic, the NFL, the Main League baseball. What was the L scape in golf earlier than LIV got here round?
ALEX MACKAY: Earlier than LIV, the PGA Tour was the dominant skilled golf tour, globally. The second tour was the European tour, which Rory McIlroy had at one level known as a stepping stone to the PGA Tour. In order that’s how gamers usually considered the competitors, the completely different excursions. And so there have been a lot of different excursions, however none fairly the scale of the PGA Tour. Now, there are additionally the 4 main occasions, and it’s essential to differentiate these as a result of the 4 main golf tournaments are literally run independently from the PGA Tour, and that distinction is definitely a giant issue within the struggle between LIV and the PGA Tour, as I’m certain we’ll get to. So these 4 occasions are run independently, however for probably the most half, the highest skilled golfers are affiliated with the PGA Tour after which additionally play within the 4 majors.
BRIAN KENNY: Okay, so there’s a little bit of, there’s co-opetition there, I assume is one approach to describe it.
ALEX MACKAY: Sure, precisely.
BRIAN KENNY: Okay. So the PGA Tour, I feel considerably surprisingly, is a nonprofit group. How do they make their cash? What’s their enterprise mannequin?
ALEX MACKAY: In order that they function about 40 weekly occasions and together with the principle tour, in addition they have the developmental excursions. They primarily make cash via media rights and by promoting sponsorships for particular person tournaments. So for instance, in 2020, they signed a 9 yr 6.3 billion greenback take care of CBS and NBC to broadcast roughly 30 of their primary occasions. They usually even have streaming offers and different options of the media rights, and along with the sponsorship, all that provides as much as a great deal of cash. In 2019, they reported 1.5 billion {dollars} of income.
BRIAN KENNY: However how do they preserve their nonprofit standing?
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, in order that’s an fascinating query. Of the 1.5 billion {dollars}, about 500 million is paid out to gamers by way of occasions and by way of prize cash. And there’s different cash that’s given to workers of the PGA Tour, however they really made about 70 million {dollars} in internet earnings. They’ll preserve their nonprofit standing as a result of they elevate deal for charity. So a great deal of the cash they elevate does go to charity. In 2019, it was about 204 million. And for sports activities leagues, they will register as a nonprofit if in addition they type of have a mission assertion that promotes a typical curiosity. And so that is one thing that lots of the leagues had at one level. So the Main League Baseball and the NFL had been at one level nonprofits, however they gave these up in 2007 and 2015 as a result of a key distinction is that they shouldn’t be partaking within the common enterprise of a sort to generate revenue. And there’s just a little little bit of a high-quality line there between are they producing revenue or are they selling the widespread curiosity of a sport?
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. I need to speak just a little bit concerning the type of spirit of competitors on the PGA tour {and professional} golf. In case you have a look at different sports activities leagues, they’re all comprised of groups and it’s individuals enjoying collectively to perform one thing. Golf is without doubt one of the solely sports activities the place you’re enjoying as an unbiased agent, I assume, for lack of a greater phrase. And there’s no farm league per se. There are golfers who come up via the faculty circuit. There are golfers who simply try it on their very own. How do you qualify to get on the PGA Tour?
ALEX MACKAY: On the PGA Tour, the gamers are all unbiased contractors that type of must make the case that ought to be on the tour. And the principle approach they do it’s simply by enjoying actually wonderful golf. To allow them to play on these developmental excursions the PGA Tour runs, they usually can get developmental factors. And in some unspecified time in the future, when you hit a sure threshold, you qualify for the tour. Now, qualifying for the tour isn’t type of the tip although. The PGA Tour maintains a rating checklist for its gamers primarily based on the factors they’ve amassed. And that rating checklist type of determines which gamers enter every of the PGA excursions occasions. So you possibly can be on the tour, however you might not qualify for the sector for a selected occasion, particularly probably the most prestigious ones if you happen to don’t place excessive sufficient on that rating checklist.
BRIAN KENNY: So it’s like it’s a meritocracy by definition, and your commitments there don’t finish as a participant. You’re answerable for financing your journey, and if you happen to’ve bought coaches, you’ve bought to pay your individual workforce, and also you even have obligations to the tour itself. Are you able to speak just a little bit about that?
ALEX MACKAY: It may simply price the gamers over 100 thousand {dollars} for tools coaching, journey, that type of factor. In case you don’t win any prize cash over the course of the yr, you possibly can truly lose cash as a PGA Tour participant, no less than till 2022 when the PGA Tour carried out some modifications alongside these traces. Now, as a member to keep up your membership, you’re additionally required to take part in a sure variety of occasions, usually no less than 15 occasions. And also you’re additionally prohibited from enjoying in different golf tournaments or showing on any golf broadcast except you might have a launch from the commissioner of the PGA Tour.
BRIAN KENNY: And all of this turns into actually related after we speak concerning the LIV tour and what it means to be a participant on the LIV tour, which is actually completely different than on the PGA Tour. So we’re going to get to that in a minute. Earlier than we do, I needed to speak just a little bit about antitrust legal guidelines and the way they apply to skilled sports activities leagues, as a result of that actually is on the coronary heart of what’s happening between these two entities.
ALEX MACKAY: And really, for probably the most half, antitrust legal guidelines apply to skilled sports activities leagues, identical to another group. If you concentrate on skilled soccer, basketball, and hockey leagues, they include unbiased groups which might be below separate possession. Now, the one exception right here is Main League Baseball, which has its personal antitrust exemption that’s particularly carved out for that league. What’s occurred for the opposite sports activities although, is that they have acquired particular exemptions. One among them is to barter for media rights. In order that’s why the NFL can collectively cut price for media rights. And the opposite is as a result of the gamers within the NFL are unionized, the NFL can act as a single entity when negotiating with these gamers. So as a result of the gamers in these leagues are unionized, and since the particular media rights deal, they will type of do these items collectively. However aside from that, in the event that they do another actions that the antitrust legislation would think about suspect they might be topic to that legislation.
BRIAN KENNY: Okay. The PGA Tour although, is structured in a different way. There’s no unionization there.
ALEX MACKAY: Proper, so there’s no unionization of the gamers. And so it raises some questions as to what meaning for the setting of the wages of those gamers, and likewise with respect to their capacity to take part in different excursions.
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. So let’s speak concerning the LIV tour now. Who’s concerned? How did it come to be? What’s the setup there?
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, so it’s type of the confluence of those two completely different forces that got here collectively to present rise to the LIV Golf tour. The primary is that there was an investor group, primarily led by, because it seems, funding from Saudi Arabia that had been trying to put money into golf for a lot of years, beginning way back to 2020. They usually had been approaching gamers with potential curiosity. That they had truly approached the European Tour a few potential partnership, and ultimately by say, the center of 2021, they’d landed a lot of large identify gamers from the PGA Tour that had dedicated to take part of their league. Phil Mickelson, Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson had been three of the largest names they’d gotten. The opposite issue was Greg Norman, who was a well-known skilled golfer, and he had truly tried to start out another league again within the nineties. And so for many years, Norman had had complaints in opposition to the PGA Tour, the way it operated, what kind of say it gave to the gamers and their compensation. And he hoped {that a} new golf league would be capable to supply type of higher advantages to the gamers.
BRIAN KENNY: Okay. And the disagreement between Greg Norman and the PGA Tour having been happening for fairly a while, it was very public.
ALEX MACKAY: That’s right, sure.
BRIAN KENNY: How did the LIV tour appeal to individuals like Phil Mickelson and Brooks Koepka? These are large names.
ALEX MACKAY: So the concept Norman had and the tour had, was that we are able to appeal to among the largest names by providing them higher compensation. And this got here primarily in two kinds. One was they had been going to supply higher payouts for every event. And so after they initially launched, they provided report setting purses, which is just like the mixed prize cash from a event of 25 million {dollars} per occasion. And along with this prize cash, they provided these golfers assured contracts, which is one thing that gamers on the PGA Tour didn’t get in any approach. And it was reported that Dustin Johnson, for instance, was provided a four-year contract of round $125 million.
BRIAN KENNY: Wow.
ALEX MACKAY: So no matter how he carried out on the tour, he was going to be making amount of cash.
BRIAN KENNY: And simply in order that if our listeners don’t know the typical purse on the PGA tour, they’re large, it’s not small cash, however it’s singles of thousands and thousands. It could be 3 million. That might be a giant purse. So what the LIV tour is doing is simply throwing gobs of cash within the gamers instructions.
ALEX MACKAY: That’s right. So yeah, the mixed purse, just a little greater, however a person participant may win one thing like between one and $3 million for successful a event. However the way in which that golf works is, except you’re Tiger Woods, you’re not successful a number of occasions yearly. And so you possibly can see these numbers and you possibly can calculate, properly, if I gained each occasion, I’d make some huge cash, however in observe, that’s not the way it occurs. And in reality, there are 200 plus golfers on the tour. A few of them lose cash as we mentioned earlier.
BRIAN KENNY: And lots of golfers like Tiger Woods and Rory McIlroy have endorsement offers with manufacturers that additionally increase that. The truth is, they in all probability earn more money from these offers than they do from truly enjoying golf. So there’s a complete bunch of golfers on the market which might be actually simply struggling to win and to make an affordable wage contemplating all their bills. There’s additionally another key variations between the 2 excursions, simply by way of the aggressive features and the precise play of the sport. Are you able to speak about that?
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah. So the opposite key variations had been round innovation within the sport of golf. So for probably the most half, golf hadn’t modified and LIV Golf thought that they may boost the occasions and make them extra fascinating to a broader viewers. So one key change is that they solely play three days of golf, three rounds, which is 54 holes in comparison with the everyday 72 gap course, and that’s truly the place the identify LIV comes from. LIV is in Roman numerals, the quantity for 54. In order that they thought this may be extra enticing each to the viewers, but in addition to the gamers as properly, as a result of they solely needed to compete for 3 days. They provided 14 tournaments with extra flexibility. So as an alternative of getting 4 main tournaments or say six large occasions and having to take part in a bunch of smaller occasions, they had been saying, all of those occasions are alternatives so that you can earn some huge cash. You don’t must play in each single occasion, however you’re going to have that flexibility to play in these high-end occasions. And in reality, that was a key think about recruiting a lot of the gamers who mentioned, this flexibility on the tour is one thing that I take pleasure in. Lastly, with respect to innovation, they adopted the slogan of golf, however louder. So they’d another issues the place they performed music on among the golf programs. They allowed gamers to play the event in shorts, which was a giant deal. That was unparalleled. And the occasions had been executed with what’s known as a shotgun begin system, which implies they line up gamers on each gap and everybody begins on the similar time, and so there’s no actual useless time on sure holes. The best way the PGA Tour operates is everybody begins on gap one and progresses their approach via 18.
BRIAN KENNY: And there’s no cuts, which actually will get to the center of, on the PGA Tour, if you happen to don’t play properly, you don’t get to play on the weekend, you haven’t any shot at successful the event, however on the LIV tour, everyone will get to play.
ALEX MACKAY: That’s proper. There’s additionally one other aspect they added was a workforce occasion. In order that they thought this was an essential aspect from a advertising perspective as they grouped gamers of 4 into groups, and actually, your workforce may win the occasion. And what that additionally did is that gave the chance for gamers to earn some cash, even when they didn’t have the most effective day on the golf course.
BRIAN KENNY: In order that they’re spending a lot of cash to innovate and to compensate gamers and appeal to gamers to their tour. How are they going to make cash?
ALEX MACKAY: So the hope was that they might make cash via two key avenues. The primary is type of a conventional media rights angle that each one sports activities leagues take part in. And in reality, in January of this yr, they did signal a media rights deal. The opposite angle was additionally new to golf and was adopted from the Formulation One idea, which was that every of those groups may have separate homeowners. And the thought was that when LIV Golf grew in reputation, the game and the league would promote the possession rights for these groups off to different traders who need to make investments with them and make cash that approach. And that is once more, the way it’s executed in Formulation One. Internally, LIV Golf had reportedly valued these groups as by way of larger than 100 million {dollars} apiece.
BRIAN KENNY: Wow. So let’s speak about how the PGA Tour reacted to LIV. They weren’t going to take this mendacity down. How did the commissioner react to this and the way did the gamers react?
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, so to begin with, the second that the gamers hit their first tee shot off the primary LIV Golf occasion in England, the commissioner Jay Monahan suspended all of the gamers taking part within the occasion from the PGA Tour, successfully giving them what gave the impression to be a lifetime ban. And he continued to droop gamers that left the PGA Tour for LIV all through the summer season. The PGA Tour, additionally, to be able to preserve gamers and type of forestall them from being drawn to the cash provided by LIV, elevated the payouts of their occasions. So he introduced that there could be eight elevated tournaments with payouts of as much as 25 million. So matching LIV Golf’s occasion. Additionally, he had carried out this program known as the Participant Impression Program that successfully rewarded the highest 10 gamers for media consideration and issues like that. The truth is, 5 of the highest 10 gamers left the PGA Tour for LIV Golf. However what the commissioner did in the summertime is, he prolonged that program. He mentioned, we’re going to pay out a complete of 100 million {dollars} to gamers that get probably the most media consideration and providing it even to extra gamers. And at last, what the commissioner additionally did, is he carried out assured payouts for taking part gamers on the tour. So he assured no less than $500,000 for each member who participated on the tour. So these modifications in compensation had been met type of with a variety of curiosity by the opposite aspect, as a result of initially when LIV had launched this program, they had been getting a variety of flak for assured contracts. Tiger Woods mentioned one thing alongside the traces of what are the incentives for the gamers to compete if they’ve assured cash?
BRIAN KENNY: After all. Yeah. Properly, and the opposite factor the commissioner did too, I feel midway via the season introduced that there have been sure occasions the place gamers could be assured to play via the weekend. Once more, these are the highest most seen gamers, and that was an effort to fulfill the sponsors, however successfully disposing of the minimize, which LIV had additionally executed.
ALEX MACKAY: And so the gamers that had left for LIV type of reacted to this and Lee Westwood mentioned, I snort at what the PGA Tour gamers have give you. It’s only a copy of what LIV is doing. Phil Mickelson mentioned with a smirk, it’s nice that they magically discovered a pair hundred million. That’s superior.
BRIAN KENNY: Phil’s all the time bought a smirk.
ALEX MACKAY: So there’s these modifications which might be occurring by way of the character of the enterprise, however on the similar time, it’s very private. The individuals on the PGA Tour had been criticizing LIV Golf and criticizing significantly the gamers. Tiger Woods mentioned that gamers who joined LIV Golf mentioned they turned their backs on the tour. Rory McIlroy, who was the primary golfer on the time, mentioned, “There’s no room within the golf world for LIV Golf. If LIV went away tomorrow, I’d be tremendous completely happy.” And he mentioned that the conduct of the gamers was duplicitous, and these tensions simply continued to escalate. It was reported that gamers misplaced friendships. Lots of these golfers had been good associates with one another, they usually simply couldn’t perceive the way you may depart for LIV Golf. And the individuals who left for LIV Golf may say, properly, how may you not perceive what I’m doing?
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. And I’d say as a fan, talking as a fan, the followers I feel had been torn about this too. Some followers had been like, yeah, good for the LIV tour. Different followers had been like, no, I’m utterly devoted to the PGA Tour. So there have been undoubtedly divides actually throughout the entire spectrum of the sport, which makes what occurred subsequent, completely astonishing, which was on June sixth when Jay Monahan of the PGA Tour introduced that the PGA Tour was going to merge with the LIV tour. Are you able to speak just a little bit about that improvement and what that deal regarded like?
ALEX MACKAY: Main into this announcement, there are a few issues that had been occurring within the first half of 2023. I imply, some gamers had been expressing concern about the truth that golf was tearing itself aside, however on the similar time, different individuals had been very adamant that you simply needed to decide a aspect. And Monahan had mentioned, they’ve gone down their path, we’ve gone down ours. There’s no reconciliation. So it was fairly clear that no less than from the highest, there was no likelihood of reconciliation. So this announcement was a significant shock. Main as much as it, I discussed that LIV Golf had secured a media rights deal, and what had occurred was the gamers had participated in a lot of the most important tournaments, and actually, the LIV Golf gamers had performed very properly. Within the Masters, Koepka and Phil Mickelson tied for second successfully, and a variety of the LIV Golf gamers felt vindicated by their high quality of competitors after which truly Koepka gained the PGA Championship. And so I feel from a query of, is LIV Golf going to have a excessive customary of the sport? They answered a variety of these questions within the first half of 2023. So I feel that’s essential background to this announcement that occurred subsequent, as a result of I feel there have been in all probability some individuals who believed that LIV Golf would simply go away and peter out, the gamers would cease competing. And that’s not likely what occurred. The announcement that the PGA Tour and the LIV Golf could be tied up below a brand new entity got here as a shock to many onlookers, however truly got here as a shock to just about all the gamers on the PGA Tour and in LIV Golf as properly. From what we all know, this deal seems to have been negotiated by a small group of folks that didn’t need it leaked. And so I feel this was a large announcement, however the truth is, the truth is, we’re nonetheless not completely certain what the deal’s going to appear to be. After this deal was introduced, the commissioner acquired a variety of pushback from the gamers who felt like they’d been betrayed.
BRIAN KENNY: We also needs to add that Jay Monahan all through 2022 actually did vilify the LIV Tour, and significantly, the connection they’d with the Saudi authorities.
ALEX MACKAY: Yeah. He had taken a really aggressive stance in opposition to the supply of funding for LIV Golf. And so for him to then go and say, truly, the PGA Tour goes to take funding from the very same sources, a variety of the gamers felt confused. They felt betrayed. And so this was a large shock. The gamers solely assembly that occurred after the announcement bought very heated. Fast reactions by the PGA Tour gamers had been alongside the traces of, it’s madness. Some individuals thought the LIV Tour was useless within the water, however now they had been type of being rescued by this infusion of cash. Monahan type of owned as much as this. He mentioned, “I acknowledge every part I’ve mentioned up to now in my prior positions. I acknowledge that individuals are going to name me a hypocrite.” However ultimately, it simply got here out this week that he needed to step away for a few month. And he mentioned he was affected by nervousness from the pushback of the deal. So this was not welcome information to lots of the gamers on the PGA Tour. It was not welcome information to lots of the followers who had agreed with the place taken by the commissioner up to now yr.
BRIAN KENNY: And talking as a communications skilled, I’d say it was not dealt with properly on the communications entrance both. So there’s one other case examine to be written about that down the highway. Let me ask you this. I type of teased this up within the introduction as a case about disruptive innovation, which it sounds wish to me, however I’ll ask that query to you. Do you see the LIV tour as having been a disruptor to the established PGA Tour?
ALEX MACKAY: I feel that’s an acceptable characterization. One key theme of LIV golf was innovation. We’re going to alter the format of the game. We’re going to alter how gamers are compensated. We’re going to alter the tone round what golf is, and we’re going to attempt to attain a distinct viewers than had been reached earlier than. I feel there was nonetheless a query of whether or not or not they might finally achieve success on their very own. And I feel that query stays. This deal that was introduced is definitely not a executed deal. It’s been present process overview. The Senate has investigated it, Division of Justice has introduced it’s investigating it. So it’s finally not clear what the deal would appear to be. It has been introduced that, no less than the gamers being informed that this could anticipate to play via 2024 and past. And so I feel there’s an actual query of whether or not or not this entity can exist and succeed.
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, and I feel we’ve seen many examples of companies being disrupted and shopping for up the competitors a lot in the identical approach that the PGA Tour has moved ahead with LIV on this proposed deal. Alex, this has been an important dialog. I knew it might be. Let me ask you, simply to finish right here with one closing thought of, in order for you our listeners to recollect one factor about this LIV case, what would it not be?
ALEX MACKAY: I feel this can be a nice case wherein to consider what’s finest. After we’re making an attempt to say what ought to the PGA Tour do, we’re serious about what’s finest usually from the attitude of the PGA Tour as a enterprise. However you possibly can additionally give it some thought, what’s finest for the game of golf? And people won’t be the identical reply. Moreover, you may need to ask what’s finest for the golfers themselves? And in the long term, what’s finest for the golfers may very well be finest for the game. This can be a state of affairs the place you might have these completely different stakeholders with completely different wants and pursuits, they usually’re coming into battle. And LIV Golf is in some methods making an attempt to take this supply of battle and use it for its personal profit.
BRIAN KENNY: They usually say that competitors is sweet for the purchasers finally. And I’d say that’s in all probability true on this case too.
ALEX MACKAY: I do know that personally I’ve discovered that storyline of LIV versus the PGA tour to be very entertaining with regards to the majors.
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Alex, thanks for becoming a member of me on Chilly Name.
ALEX MACKAY: This has been great, Brian. Thanks.
BRIAN KENNY: In case you take pleasure in Chilly Name, you may like our different podcasts, After Hours, Local weather Rising, Deep Objective, IdeaCast, Managing the Way forward for Work, Skydeck, and Ladies at Work. Discover them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you hear, and if you happen to may take a minute to fee and overview us, we’d be grateful. You probably have any ideas or simply need to say hiya, we need to hear from you. E mail us at coldcall@hbs.edu. Thanks once more for becoming a member of us. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’ve been listening to Chilly Name, an official podcast of Harvard Enterprise College and a part of the HBR Podcast Community.